Interview with Bill Houser and Jim Knutelski, the guys behind "Hidden"

I'm seriously considering writing a book... granted, I wouldn't have to do much work on it. We've done over 200 interviews on Dead Harvey and most of them are just collecting dust somewhere in cyber-space. I'm thinking that I'll write some sort of commentary or a loose story around the indie horror world, then work in all these interviews. It would be a sort of like "The Indie Horror World As Seen By Indie Horror Filmmakers" or something like that. Okay, I'd have to work on the title... but would you pick that up? I would. Anyhow, once again, we have a great interview for you today. This is one is from Bill Houser and Jim Knutelski, the guys behind the upcoming micro-budget horror, "Hidden".

We spoke with Bill a while back, when he had just finished up a short film called "Martin Gimbley's Escape". You can read that interview by clicking here. He used that short to hone his skills, get some practice, then he was going to tackle a feature. Well, here we are, about a year and a half later, and that feature length film is finished. The film is a massive step up from their previous effort and it's a real achievement. What struck me most about the film was just how ambitious it was. They didn't let a grandiose plot, multiple characters and weaving story lines hold them back. They did a great job of holding the idea together and delivering a well crafted, well executed feature length film. My hat's off to them for sure, the film is something to be proud of.

Now, the interview is long. Real long... but I'm going to post the whole thing, as I think there's a lot of advice in here that new filmmakers can use. If you're one of those filmmakers that's just armed with a camera, an idea and unwavering resolve, you should read this from beginning to end. However, before we get to the interview, I'm going to embed the trailer.



First off, tell us a bit about “Hidden”. What’s it all about?

JIM: On the surface it’s a story about what can go wrong with a competitive geocaching event when the sponsor may not have had the best intentions when planning the event.

BILL: The deeper story is about family secrets and betrayals. I like to think that it’s a classical Greek tragedy wrapped up in the skin of a slasher flick. Of course as the writer my view may be slightly warped. Ultimately, we were trying to capture the spirit of the late 70’s and early 80’s slasher films. The genre movies from that era, unlike most of the crap that tried to copy them in later years, actually had very suspenseful core stories.

If you don’t mind us asking, what was the budget and how did you secure the financing?

JIM: The budget is what we (Bill and I - executive producers) could afford to spend over the 12 week shoot. Meaning that there was no financing other than what we could put into the film with personal finances - checking, savings, credit cards, etc. You can become very creative on a low budget film when you need to. "Ummm honey, I need to buy that rock climbing equipment that I have always wanted - I'm not planning on rock climbing any time soon, but we will probably need it for stunts during the shoot." Use your imagination on how these conversations ended up. Let’s just say that we were nowhere near the industry standard on a low budget film, the entire cost was well under 6 figures.

BILL: We learned a lot about where we could get away with cutting cost and where you really shouldn’t. Also, had we paid for people to do all the post production stuff we did ourselves we would have ended up paying this project off for the next thirty years..

You primarily shot outdoors, which is great. Nature makes some great sets, which tends to be a bonus when you’re on a limited budget. Really, the setting made the film. It was basically a character itself. Talk about your locations, how you picked them, where they were...

JIM: The film was shot entirely in northeast Missouri and east central Illinois. We selected locations based on what we needed according to screenplay, what we knew we could get within a short distance, what was FREE, and what did not require legal documents to proceed with production of the film.

BILL: From the writing stage on we had hoped that we could make the film look bigger by using a variety of settings. We didn’t want this to just be another film ‘out in the woods’, it was important that each of the scenes had a distinctive image. As you said, their own character. The Waterfall, The Cliff, The Caves…each one with its own purpose and feeling.

JIM: The waterfall was a challenge. We scouted a few before settling on the one we used. Finding a cliff around here is simple. Finding a cliff you can throw your lead actress off of without hurting her is another thing. Our cast were all troopers and did all of their own stunts. Convincing Ellen Hinch (Trish Garrett) that the climbing harness would hold her was a hurdle. Apologizing for the bruises she had after 3 or 4 takes and bouncing off the rock face while tied to a rope was another, but it’s easier to beg for forgiveness than to get permission. "Hey you’re already bruised up now - why not just finish up this shoot and not have to go through this again."

Having said that, shooting outdoors can pose a lot of problems. Limited access to electricity, tough to set up the camera, bad lighting… talk about some of the hurdles and lessons learned from filming outdoors.

BILL: Weather was probably the single biggest issue. It turned what was suppose to be a 20 day shoot into a 40 day shoot. I can’t tell you how many times we got everything and everybody on location only to watch a lovely sunny day turn into hurricane conditions. Nothing to do, but pack everything up and send everybody home.

Beyond this we did struggle with a lot of the technical issues you mentioned, partly because of the conditions, and partly because of our inexperience in working outdoors.

JIM: Sound was one of the big ones. Although several of the locations "look" secluded they were not. Try getting everyone set and ready to shoot, only to realize that the diesel machinery just started up for the day and will be warming up for the next 15 minutes, or the highway 50 yards away has an abundance of choppers riding by this particular day, or that the neighbor next door is mowing the lawn. It can be very frustrating when it is out of your control.

BILL: I’ll never shoot near running water again. If you haven’t experienced this you can’t imagine the sound issues it causes. The sound changes with every different mic move making it nearly impossible to analysis and edit in post. Leaving you with the options of leaving the background sound as is or trying to dub all the dialogue in post. Either way the overall quality suffers.

JIM: We also had issues with power for equipment. We had one shoot that was an "all nighter" and we thought we came prepared with lighting and power. The power system failed about 30 minutes into the shoot and we improvised with flashlights and any other light we could find for the rest of the night- the shoot must go on. Always have plan B, C, D for equipment because Murphy's Law is still alive and well.

BILL: And to make things worse that night we were a couple hundred yards up the side of a cliff. It was truly dangerous, and Jerry Irick (Tiny Hunsaker) has the scars to prove it.

We also got a special visit from the ‘Boys in Blue’ that night. Try explaining why you have a girl tied up and dangling off a cliff at 2:00 am to a couple cops…big fun.

JIM: Yeah, even though we were on private property and had permission to shoot, that doesn’t keep the neighbors from complaining to local law enforcement when they hear a woman screaming bloody murder.

BILL: It was a pretty brutal shoot for everybody. I know I didn’t even think about going out into nature for the next six months.

JIM: As a matter of fact, after completion of the shooting, we made a pact that our next project would be 100 percent indoors where we would have much more control over the environment. That was several months ago and we are now probably dumb enough to go back to the great outdoors for our next production.

You had a lot of characters and did a great job of creating separate identities and storylines. Talk about the casting process and how you managed so many actors.

BILL: Well, I went in knowing I was writing a less than incredibly original script. I know that a lot of writers won’t admit that straight out, but it was very much part of the plan for this movie right from the start. We were making an 80’s style slasher film, people that like the genre have a general understanding of what these films are about. So, knowing the nature of the story, I wanted to create an eclectic cast of characters. I wanted characters that fell into broad stereo-types that everyone would understand, but still felt like real people. One thing that works well on an independent film that doesn’t generally happen on bigger pictures is that the script was actually adjusted in several ways after the cast was on board. We already had the pattern for the characters, but then we custom fit it to the actors.

JIM: We had a normal casting call and had a good response which meant a decent pool to choose from for leading roles. As far as the smaller parts, if you were willing, you probably got some part in the film. The crew was also thrown in front of the camera when the need arose. The entire crew performed some sort of double duty during the shoot.

BILL: As far as directing the actors, we worked a lot on some core acting skills prior to filming. Okay, really just one core idea, “Stop acting”. Above all, I wanted them to understand that the characters I had written were now their property. That I had handed off the characters to them, and they were responsible for truly bringing them to life. Part of that included allowing a liberal interpretation of the screenplay. This approach worked amazingly well with several of the actors, but less with others. Considering the experience level of the cast, I was sincerely pleased with the work that they did. I’m looking forward to working with many of them again in the future.

So, last time we talked to you, you had just finished up a short film, “Martin Gimbley’s Escape”. Did anything come of the film or did you do exactly what you said you were going to do and use it as a learning experience to go off and make this feature?

JIM: It was an excellent learning tool for the feature. It did fairly well on the internet and at one point had several thousand hits. We are including it as a bonus short on the DVD. It could become a full length feature in the future, or a longer short. We still like the story.

BILL: We learned a strange lesson about finding an audience from Martin Gimbley’s Escape, it was barely noticed on YouTube or any USA based site, but was lifted off of YouTube and posted on a German horror site where it clocked a ton of hits. I’ve gotten e-mails in Japanese from people that watched on Japanese language sites we never even knew existed. Overall though, it was training, but like Jim said Martin may return in the future to tell the rest of his story.

Talk about the differences in making a short and a feature. Any key bits of advice that you would give to a filmmaker that’s thinking of moving on from short films?

JIM: The feature film was a larger monster by necessity: more cast, more crew, and a logistical nightmare compared to the short: setting up locations for several weekends of shooting instead of one or two, feeding people, transportation, setting up several locations, scheduling, technical issues, etc. Plan, plan, plan and write everything down. Find people that are "go getters" and can make wine from water on 30 seconds notice while keeping the director and cinematographer from killing an actor/actress on any given day. Get a variety of people to work with that are from different backgrounds. You never know when someone's obscure experience or skill will come in handy in the middle of a shoot.

BILL: It was exhausting. Still, my advice would be to not waste your time doing five or six shorts, and jump in there and make a feature. Making shorts is like playing in a tee-ball league and comparing it to major league baseball…not even the same game. In my opinion, completing a weak feature is still light-years ahead of making a decent short.

Part of my issue with making a bunch of shorts is that, as I mentioned in the previous interview with Dead Harvey, too many of the shorts I see are scenes not complete stories. I’m sure other people feel differently, and that’s cool. I just figure if your goal is to do feature films…then do feature films. Do the best you can with what you have. You get the opportunity to do a better treatment of a story in the future, fine…do it again. That’s essentially what happened with Evil Dead and Evil Dead II, and if you count the promo short they made before the first movie they made that film three times.

What’s your goal for “Hidden”? Is for accolades, are you looking to make money or are you just looking to get a feature under your belt?

JIM: When we started we had a specific goal, earn enough to finance the next project. As the process went on we started thinking about other issues like how this first film establishes the identity of Confusion Films, and what else can we learn from the process of distributing this film.

BILL: As with the short, we couldn’t care less about festivals or awards. We just want to get out to the indie horror fans in the most reasonable and convenient way we can. Let the people who understand what’s involved in making truly independent films like ours decide what they think about it.

JIM: You always hope for the best and that you made something that people enjoy watching. Then they will remember you and hopefully be receptive of your next project. We have a large list of lessons learned, a few we covered earlier. After this shoot, we plan to implement a few key ideas that will give our productions some needed technical improvement. We know that we were not perfect on this shoot, but we also feel that it is a quality product that is worth your time to watch. We have screened the completed production and received some very favorable comments, including yours.

BILL: From the start we understood that this film was not going to be our masterpiece. It was part of a plan we had to get to where we wanted to be by our third production, and I truly believe we’re on target to meet our personal goals for the quality of our films. This one is good, horror fans will enjoy it…be ready for the next one.

How are you going to approach distribution with “Hidden”?

JIM: We have a few different approaches to consider: Conventional, web, or a combination of them. We are definitely leaning toward web based distribution – direct download for a fee. There may also be distribution of DVDs, but due to the cost of media, packaging, and shipping, it is the least favorable option. Our goal is to keep the retail cost of "Hidden" and, any other productions we complete, low - just like the production costs. Why should the customer have to pay for distribution if we can find a creative way to cut the cost?

BILL: The bottom line is we didn’t spend 20 million, and don’t need to make 200 million to please our shareholders. Fairly positive that we will be looking at a very low priced direct download to own option directly from us. We’re still looking at the numbers, but it is very possible that we’re talking $2 to $3 downloads in a format that the customers can burn to DVD, transfer to their personal media device, or whatever. We’re also looking into some other options that were suggested by DEAD HARVEY…because once again you guys prove that you actually give a shit about independent filmmakers. At any rate, the film should be available this summer.

Where can people find out more about “Hidden” and/or get their hands on a copy?

BILL: Our website: www.confusionfilms.com
The trailer is up on the site, and getting heavy circulation around FaceBook. We haven’t started our media push yet, but it is coming. We should have a webpage devoted strictly to HIDDEN up in the next week. DVDs and the downloads we were talking about should all be available by August…you know there’s a Friday the 13th in August. There might just be an incredibly low priced download available that night. Maybe we’ll make it only for those people with the secret DEAD HARVEY password.

What’s next?

BILL: Well, ironically after I said what I did about shorts, our next project is a feature length film composed of shorter individual story segments inside of a wrap-around story. Basically like the Creep Show movies. I recently started collecting all the old Creepy, Eerie, and Vamperilla comic magazines and the stories for this feature were heavily inspired by the tone of those stories. Of course, we’re bringing the action up to the intensity level that the modern horror audience expects. Right now the working title is Penny Dreadfuls.

Interview with Bill Houser, writer/director of Martin Gimbley's Escape

Do any of you guys listen to KCRW's "The Business"? If you don't, I recommend it... It's an NPR show out of Santa Monica, that you can podcast, and it's all about what's going on in the industry. If you're interested, you can find out more about it here. I was listening to an older episode where they talked to Danny Goldberg, a music executive, about the music industry and how it's changed, where it's going, etc. Obviously, I'm not going to go into detail, but basically they were saying that the big labels are no longer as relevant to musicians as, say, the concert promoters, video games or ad agencies are. Further, as it takes a lot of marketing dollars and work to build up an artist, the labels just don't take risks on new artists much... they can't afford to. Now, the music industry got hit hard by digital and the labels are making less than 50% of what they did just a few short years ago. As much as the studios think it has, film hasn't been hit that hard yet, but it will. So, I think what's going on in the music industry is VERY relevant to the future of film.

So, what does that mean for you indie filmmakers? Well, for one, don't expect a studio to take much of a chance on you... or anything, really. Every project they green-light will have been looked over by an army of accountants, executives and other people who don't know a thing about film. The art and craft of film are the LAST things on their mind. So, where do you turn? Well, first, you go out and make some shit. Then, you turn to the festivals and you turn to the internet. Seriously, if you have no money, write a script and enter it in festivals, submit it everywhere. If you can scrape together a bit of cash, go make a short, do the same thing. Sharpen your skills, leverage what you've got. Then, take that and leverage it again, and so on, and so on. It's a battle, but it's definitely a battle you can win.

Anyhow, I recieved an email from Bill Houser, who is fighting the same, afore mentioned battle that most of us are fighting, and he was looking to get a bit of promotion for his short film, "Martin Gimbley's Escape". A film that he made for nothing, for the sake of making it and sharpening his skills. The result is a very effective little short with a good story and a bit of gore. Anyhow, with everything I mentioned above in my mind, I thought... instead of just mentioning it fleetingly, I'll ask Bill a bunch of questions and find out, exactly, what he was thinking and what the process was like. That's what we're here for... if you've got a short or some project that you'd like to have people notice, let us know. We're more than happy to try to get you guys some promotion.

First off, tell us a bit about yourself. What are your influences and what got you into indie horror?

It's hard to know where to start when the path is as crazy as mine has been...Straight out of high school, that would be 20 years ago, I was accepted into a couple colleges for film studies. However, I ended up getting convinced that I should stay in my local area of Hannibal, Missouri and go to a community college. Film studies turned into criminal justice, and I ended up getting a Master's degree in CJ. I basically gave up the idea of filmmaking, and labored through my 'career'. While all this was going on I was also continuing with my hobby of paranormal investigation, and though it seemed completely unrelated to film, it actually is what put me back on the filmmaking course. Our investigation group, Show Me Paranormal Investigations, was/is a fairly conservative evidence driven group, and a couple years ago we ran into the wave of popular ghosthunting. We quickly discovered that the clients that were contacting us now didn't care about the evidence they just wanted us to confirm their ghost stories so they could be like the shows on TV. Paranormal investigation had become a part of the entertainment business, and I just kept thinking that if that's what it was coming to, then it was time to drop out of that arena and just make scary movies. Well, the thought stuck and all those dreams came flooding back on me until I reached the point where I was obsessed with filmmaking again. At 38, it's a little late for film school, so I basically put myself through a crash course. I read and watched everything I could find about film. I probably read thirty plus books in a year on directing, editing, and acting.

This short was basically my thesis film, and I'm about 80% pleased with it.

As for influences, my biggest in the horror genre would be John Carpenter. His films have something that you can't put your finger on that make them get inside you. The Fog is a good example, it's not a great movie, but I can watch it over and over again...and apparently a lot of other people feel the same way.

Tell us about "Martin Gimbley's Escape", where did the idea come from and what made you actually get out there and do it?
I'm not a big fan of short films. At least most short films that have no story, and are really just scenes. I wanted to tell a full tale that would work in under ten minutes, and I really struggled to find something that was right. I finally had the idea to do a modern fable. To revisit the story of the guy that thinks a pact with the devil is going to be a good thing.

Once the screenplay was finished, in June, I really pushed to get this project done by Halloween. I knew it was basically going to tell us what we might be able to do in the future.

What was your budget for the film?

What's a budget? This was very much a no-budget short. We begged and pleaded to get this done. No paid actors, no crew, and I did all the post work myself. I wouldn't have done it any other way though, because I wanted the learning experience.

What did you shoot on and how long was the shoot?

The film was shot on Canon HV20's (now HV30's if you're looking for one), and I can't say enough about this little cam. Having seen stuff shot on $10,000 pro cams and the footage from the HV20 for under $1,000...I'm sticking with the HV20. As with any cam, the picture quality is more about lighting. This is one of the big areas we'll be working on in the future. Also, I want to mention Andrew Kramer and videocopilot.net, awesome sight for Adobe AfterEffects tutorials, and we used their Film Magic project to get the greenfilm stock filter for this short. We planned a three day shot, and ended up with a three day shot...but with an unplanned month off waiting to get access to a jail for a 20 second scene.

I thought it was very sharp, no messing around. Right to the point. Talk about putting together a short, from concept to completion.

Thanks. I think the biggest issue is understanding what your story is going in, and what it is expected to be coming out of production. The old rule of a screenplay page equals a minute of footage is pretty solid, so you easily get a good idea of what you're dealing with length wise right from the start. The biggest mistake I've noticed with a lot of indie stuff is that the director tries to edit in camera, and clearly doesn't give the editor enough choices. I think some of that comes from trying to storyboard every move, and believing that the finished film is really going to come out that precisely. Especially on a short, shoot coverage and more coverage and a little more coverage. There's no way to know what will work when you set down to edit. I also think that it's important to try to establish a mood. The colors of the film, music of the film, and the setting should all be trying to move the audience into a mood so they can be effected by the story.

What were some of your biggest hurdles in getting the film finished?

There's an old saying that a film is written at least three times: when the screenplay is written, when it is shot, and when it is edited. Okay, for an indie film you have to add in a couple more: like when you can't get kids to play the parts (the script was originally written with Martin being a child killer) so you have to rewrite it two days before you shoot so that the victims are women instead. I think the general rule is what ever you think will be hard...will be hard, and whatever you think will go easy...will be impossible. Also, the editor really needs to learn to be more organized...he's a hack!

Did you enter it into any festivals? If so, how did it do?

Martin Gimbley's Escape was finished in October this year, so we missed most of the festivals. We're still pretty up in the air about if we're going to enter it in festivals or not. Really more concerned with what comes next, and getting something feature length finished.

What was your goal when you set out to make the film? Was it more about honing your craft or were you hoping for it to open some doors?

This project was an absolute training exercise, and a bit of a recruitment poster. As I said, I'm not really interested in shorts. So my direction is definately to get a feature done, and recruiting the right actors is a big part of that. It's easy when they can see something that you've finished and get a feel for how you do things. This was a lot more about gaining the full support of my people for future projects than it was about attracting attention from others. Although we will take some attention...especially if it comes with money.

I am kind of interested in doing a web series. You know, a 10 part thing made up of 6 minute episodes to tell the whole story. Maybe Dead Harvey could run it.
(editors note: we're listening...)

Talk about the indie horror scene. What do you think about where it's at now and where do you see it going?

The indie horror scene is awesome now, because everybody has a shot. The only concern I have is I see a lot of multi-million dollar films trying to look like indie horror. Shot in HD with soap opera lighting...they are just painful. It's a bad thing if the standard slips to the point that anything will pass as acceptable because it's 'indie'. I know I'm not 100% satisfied with the production value of this short, and I would be screaming if I didn't know it would get better in future projects. Pretty sad that the people that have the means to make something look good don't have the skill or the will.

Where can people check out "Martin Gimbley's Escape"?

Martin Gimbley's Escape can be viewed and downloaded at:

Confusionfilms.com

It's actually on there in two versions, one with the greenfilm stock (the original), and one with the footage with out filter as it was shot with the HV20.

What's next for you? Any new projects in the works?

Confusion Films will be shooting BloodCache, our first feature this spring. You can find out more about it on our website. We may also shoot another short prior to the beginning of the feature. If so this will be with the cast from BloodCache, and will basically be a warm up so we can all get use to each other.